TRADITIONAL FAMILY VALUES VS. ALTERNATE LIFESTYLES

SicPreFix · Sergeant Joined: Feb 21, 2004 Posts: 121 Location: Canada

Hmmm. Well Mrs Hoppes, you know I just can't do that Wink

.

TMOV, I do indeed think you're overeacting. I was having a bit of fun and I think Mrs. H understood. As for shoulder chips, there is much in this world to be a bit chipish about... but I won't bore you with that kind of chit-chat.

TMOV · Posted: Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:17 pm Post subject:

SicPreFix · Sergeant Joined: Feb 21, 2004 Posts: 121 Location: Canada

Well TMOV, it's called irony, playful teasing, and a pinch of give and take disagreement with humour.

I think.

Smile

TMOV · Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 1:16 am Post subject:

MrsHoppes · Sergeant Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 122 Location: USA

thank you for looking out for me. Very Happy

I understood his humor. Confused

ekrubtap · Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject:

Despite all that two by two stuff, the bible does seem a little shakey on the concept of marriage and family life... You've got Lot (in the presence of angels, no less) offering his virgin daughters to an enraged gay mob (good thinking there Lot, like this is gonna succeed.) Well this obviously had some effect on the poor daughters, causing them (You know where this is leading, don't you Mrs. Hoppes & TMOV) to hatch the plan of lying in flaggrente with dad after getting him drunk on vino. Now, normally these girls would be deemed succubi and be stoned, burned or dunked or whatever was current. But no, this was so OK with God that they not only carried to term, but the fruit of their loins started whole new peoples.
Could have been worse, tho. They could have been a daughter in the family of Jephthah. Burnt offering unto the Lord, she was, in thanks for old Jephthah being allowed to slaughter a bunch of folk.
1 Samuel 1:19 Then they arose early in the morning and worshiped before the LORD, and returned again to their house in Ramah. And Elkanah had relations with Hannah his wife, and the LORD remembered her. Well thanks for sharing that. Dare I ask what is being remembered here?
And if you don't obey the Lord, well, he can betroth you a wife, but another man will violate her (fine for the Lord, but innocent she has naught to say in the matter. Actually, see the whole curse in Deut.28:15-44. Best curse I've seen in a long time.
While we're in Deut., of course you realize that if your brother dies without a son it's up to you, bucko. You have to, ah, service your brother's wife til she comes up with a son. And don't forget, if you're in a fight with another dude, and taking a pasting, and your girl comes to the rescue...be sure to inform her not to grasp and squeeze your opponents, er, family jewels, or you'll have to whack off her hand. No mercy Deut25:11. See Onanism for other hand whacking possibiliies.
Let's see, oh yeah, there's Sampson's wife being given to his buddy, Judges 14:20.
And there are the at least 19 references to polygamy (only 6 against). This could be related to the fact that in the bible only the women are ever barren, never the men.
Good Old Honest Abraham Lied twice about his relationship to his wife in order to have her sleep with kings. The second time she was over 90 yrs old. Yoiks. But then Abe had his concubines. Gen 25:6.
OK, in Genesis, what is..."and Cain knew his wife"...?? Is this a euphanism for onanism? No, can't be, they had a son, Enoch, who founds a city (Pop. 3??) No, I guess it could only have been....gasp...Eve. No wonder humanity often behaves like a pack of inbred yokels. We are.
When it comes to family values, I think I'll stick with the golden rule.
(not the one that states ..."Those that have the gold make the rules", but the original, which is far more to my liking.)

TMOV · Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:05 pm Post subject:

MrsHoppes · Sergeant Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 122 Location: USA

Awww... burst my bubble, why don't you! <pout>

TMOV · Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:08 pm Post subject:

ekrubtap · Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 9:39 am Post subject:

Just what are "traditional family values"? Are they what they appear to be, some kind of right wing christian la la land view through rose coloured glasses of a fifties sit-com where things like divorce, different races, the bomb, and female children didn't exist?
A man's home is his castle?
The christian right would do well to climb down off their high horses vis-a-vis gays and lesbians wanting to tie the knot and search concientiously behind their own doors.

For far too many, this is family tradition....

Between 1 and 4 million women experience serious assault by an intimate partner each year.
Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report: Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey (NCJ-154348) August 1995, p. 3.

40-60% of men who abuse women also abuse children.
American Psychological Association, Violence and the Family: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 80.

Each year, an estimated 3.3 million children witness their mothers or female caretakers being abused.
American Psychological Association, Violence and the Family: Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 11.

Nearly 1 in 3 adult women experience at least 1 physical assault by a partner during adulthood.
American Psychological Association; Violence and the Family Report of the American Psychological Association Presidential Task Force on Violence and the Family (1996), p. 10.

57 % of homeless families identified domestic violence as a primary cause of homelessness.
The United States Conference of Mayors, A Status Report on Hunger and Homelessness in America's Cities: 1999, December 1999, p. 94.

Approximately one-third of the men counseled (for battering) at Emerge are professional men who are well respected in their jobs and their communities. these have included doctors, psychologists, lawyers, ministers, and business executives. (For Shelter and Beyond, Massachusetts Coalition of Battered Women Service Groups, Boston, MA 1990)

Women who leave their batterers are at a 75% greater risk of being killed by the batterer than those who stay. (Barbara Hart, National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, 1988)

Nationally, 50 percent of all homeless women and children are on the streets because of violence in the home. (Senator Joseph Biden, U.S. Senate Committee on the Judiciary, Violence Against Women: Victims of the System, 1991)

There are nearly three times as many animal shelters in the United States as there are shelters for battered women and their children. (Senate Judiciary Hearings, Violence Against Women Act, 1990).

The National Child Abuse and Neglect Data System (NCANDS) reported an estimated 1,300 child fatalities in 2001. This translates to a rate of 1.81 children per 100,000 in the general population. NCANDS defines "child fatality" as the death of a child caused by an injury resulting from abuse or neglect, or where abuse and/or neglect were contributing factors.

Recent studies in Colorado and North Carolina have estimated as many as 50 to 60 percent of deaths resulting from abuse or neglect are not recorded (Crume, DiGuiseppi, Byers, Sirotnak, Garrett, 2002; Herman-Giddens, Brown, Verbiest, Carlson, Hooten, Howell, Butts, 1999).
These studies indicate that neglect is the most under-recorded form of fatal maltreatment.

Research indicates very young children (ages 5 and younger) are the most frequent victims of child fatalities. NCANDS data for 2001 demonstrated children younger than 1 year accounted for 41 percent of fatalities, while children younger than 6 years accounted for 85 percent of fatalities. These proportions have remained fairly consistent from year to year. This population of children is the most vulnerable for many reasons, including their dependency, small size, and inability to defend themselves.
From http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/factsheets/fatality.cfm

An estimated 135,573 child maltreatment investigations were conducted in Canada in 1998. This figure corresponds to an estimated incidence rate of 21.52 investigations per 1,000 children. It is important to keep in mind, however, that this incidence rate includes all child maltreatment investigations, regardless of whether the report was substantiated or not.
From http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/pphb-dgspsp/publ...index.html

Crying or Very sad

While I would assume some level of abuse among gays and lesbians (they are, after all, human), I can't see them being at the root of the percieved disintegration of the family unit. Surely the voice of God doesn't instruct you to blame them. That would be most unfortunate. Only serial killers hear the voice of God. And if you claim otherwise, you belong in the Church of the Rubber Sepulchre.

So toss your bibles, qurans and torahs in the garbage where they and their hate filled invective belong, come on out of that religious closet, roll up your sleeves and get to work on the real problems.

SicPreFix · Sergeant Joined: Feb 21, 2004 Posts: 121 Location: Canada

In an attempt at egalitarianism and in the interest of gender equality and fairness and balance in reporting, I think it must be pointed out that while there is clearly a problem with violence against women, there is also clearly a problem with balance ir reporting women's own particpation in our culture of violence. For all the good it may have done, the women's movement of the lest couple of decades has created a very false image of the supposed innocence of women.

It would appear that statistically women are more likely to abuse children than are men by a small percentage. This may partly be due to proximity. Also, it must be stated, that in lesbian relationships there is an almost equal amount of spousal abuse and battering as there is in heterosexual relationships. It simply gets reported (and is admitted to) far less often for a wide range of reasons. It should also be noted that there may be nearly 30 to 40% as many cases of men being abused in heterosexual relationships as women, but such abuses are not reported very often for a wide range of reasons.

While I do not dispute most of your stats Pat, I think it's time to balance the violence-against-women scenario a little bit and come clean to the fact that humanity is simply violent to humanity. Men against women; women against men. We in the west simply give more airtime and precedence to violence against women than violence against men for a wide range of reasons, including the fact that we expect men to be able to take it. After all, big boys don't cry.

Edit: I thought I should expand on my thesis. One of the things we do in the west is allow women a great deal of leeway for excuse, in terms of cause of violence. For example, Susan Smith was not responsible for drowning her kids, it was the fault of men who had abused her. We do not under any circumstances give such leeway to men. I feel the current women's movement has become something of a distaff black panthers organization: rather than equality, they jsut want to turn the tables of their supposed oppressors.

Some of this information I got from a pyschology professor at college, a lesbian whose area of expertise was studying women's violence against other women. Another interesting, if disturbing read is Patricia Pearson's book "When She Was Bad."

A couple of intersting points. It has been proposed that the current glass ceiling that women decry in the corporate suite is more often than not built and supported by women executives who do not want other women to encroach on their power. It has also been suggested that the incidence of spousal abuse, physical, emotional, and pyschological is at its lowest in male homosexual relationships.

ekrubtap · Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:04 pm Post subject:

OK, works for me. I was going to mention elder abuse, androabuse, self abuse, animal abuse but it was already getting lengthy.

Although men and women are about as likely to use violence in the home, assaults by men are seven times more likely than women to cause injuries requiring medical treatment. Since men are generally stronger than women, it is unfortunately easy to understand why abuse by men towards women is so much more damaging. It is also this difference in strength which makes abused men virtually invisible, since only a small number of male abuse survivors require medical treatment *

*Jan E. Stets and Murray A. Straus (1980). Gender Differences in Reporting Marital Violence and its Medical and Psychological Consequences, in Physical Violence in American Families: Risk Factors and Adaptations to Violence in 8,145 Families, Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles, editors, 151-166. New Brunswick, N.J. : Transaction Publishers

Equality is one thing, going toe to toe quite another.

But whatever the reality, it's not, never was, and never will be the myth of the traditional family. I suppose there did and does exist such families, but they are certainly not the norm.

ekrubtap · Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 1:11 pm Post subject:

OK, works for me. I was going to mention elder abuse, androabuse, self abuse, animal abuse but it was already getting lengthy.

Although men and women are about as likely to use violence in the home, assaults by men are seven times more likely than women to cause injuries requiring medical treatment. Since men are generally stronger than women, it is unfortunately easy to understand why abuse by men towards women is so much more damaging. It is also this difference in strength which makes abused men virtually invisible, since only a small number of male abuse survivors require medical treatment *

*Jan E. Stets and Murray A. Straus (1980). Gender Differences in Reporting Marital Violence and its Medical and Psychological Consequences, in Physical Violence in American Families: Risk Factors and Adaptations to Violence in 8,145 Families, Murray A. Straus and Richard J. Gelles, editors, 151-166. New Brunswick, N.J. : Transaction Publishers

Equality is one thing, going toe to toe quite another.

But whatever the reality, it's not, never was, and never will be the myth of the traditional family. I suppose there did and does exist such families, but they are certainly not the norm.

BooRad · Sergeant Joined: Feb 13, 2004 Posts: 141 Location: USA

Hey, Pat...almost didn't recognize you...til I saw all the verbage that was being spewed forthith! The avatar change didn't change that, heh!

Were you possibly abused at some point in your life or have a loved one that had some abuse perpitrated uponst them? Would you like to talk about it? It might do some good, it might...

BooRad

TMOV · Posted: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:17 pm Post subject:


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