Just a little straight talk about the Bible...

PanenDeist · Cadet Joined: Jan 10, 2004 Posts: 6 Location: USA

This is the word of the Lord

That is the liturgical phrase used in Christian churches to mark the end of a reading from the Bible. It is a strange, even a misleading, phrase. Yet Sunday after Sunday it is repeated, reinforcing in the psyches of worshipers a rather outdated attitude toward Holy Scripture.

In many of its details, the Bible is simply wrong! Epilepsy is not caused by demon possession. David did not write the Psalms. The earth is not the center of the universe. On other issues of great public concern, the Bible is no longer even regarded as moral. Its verses have been used to affirm war, slavery, segregation and apartheid. It defines women as inferior creatures and suggests that homosexual persons be put to death.

Church people try to ignore or suppress these biblical deficiencies, but when the Scriptures are read to a listening congregation the response is increasing incredulity. Still they respond, "This is the word of the Lord."

Outside the church, this presumed authority of Scripture is generally ignored. Secular people live in a post-religious world where the idea that a literary work, written between 1000 B.C.E. and 135 C.E., can be "the Word of God," is simply too far-fetched to believe. This obvious ecclesiastical power play is no longer even passively accepted as benign. One has only to chart the evil and pain that many people have endured in history because someone regarded the Bible as the "Word of God." That claim is no longer regarded as valid.

Can WE handle the truth? Let us consider an UPGRADE of modern Spirituality. Perhaps, something like this:

www.PanenDeism.com

Your thoughts?

Larry

MrsHoppes · Sergeant Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 122 Location: USA

Sounds like a Catholic Church you are talking about.

Any anyone who reads the Bible knows that women were not and are not inferior. Slavery is not God's plan for His people. The only times you see His people in slavery is when they have pulled away from Him. The earth is not the center of the universe. Epilepsy is not caused by demon possession. However, demon posession is real. Aparthide is not supported in the Bible in terms of race. Separating ones self from paganism is. And for good reason.

What did I miss? Psalms? David wrote most of them. but not all. Solomon wrote some. And there are a few other writers.

ekrubtap · Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 11:31 am Post subject:

I'm not yet sure if this is a good thing or not. The more splinter religions that come down the pike, the weaker the mainstream religions through the bleeding off process. After all, we all know that sects sells. This is good.
On the other hand, the more sects, the more internecine warfare. This is not good.
You seem to question pretty well every major tenet of mainstream religion except deism which presumably you concur is just "there". Your proofs are fuzzy and quazi-, in the order of - some scientists say the universe shows design.
Think I'll hang on to my "A" for a while, yet.

PS.....from the look of your avatar this has been a tough sell for you.
Perhaps you should seek out the services of a panendentist. Very Happy

MrsHoppes · Sergeant Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 122 Location: USA

A? As is Above all things you believe?

ekrubtap · Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 3:52 pm Post subject:

That would be Athiest, Abeliever, Anotherbeer, Mrs. Hoppes. Very Happy

This reminded me of The Jedi Creed as is "may the force be with you", and here I find they're trying to religionate the "force", too. Maybe a little collusion is in order, a panenforce, if you will.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1204829.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2218456.stm
http://212.168.23.160/creed/
http://212.168.23.160/creed/belief.shtml

PanenDeist · Cadet Joined: Jan 10, 2004 Posts: 6 Location: USA

My first post here began with a direct quote (except the last line. I did not include the source initially) by a very popular Episcopal priest by the name of "Bishop Spong." He is an outspoken, Christian spiritual leader who has been painfully honest with his comments about the dismal future of the traditional Christian church, unless it changes it's direction philosophically.

As a former Christian evangelist, very dedicated at one time in my faith, I have grown very disillusioned with organized religion. In this day and age, Jesus is BIG business; as witnessed recently in the Mel Gibson, independent film project. Mr. Gibson will make an estimated $500 Million before the movie has run its course. Don't get me wrong- I'm completely OK with that. I think he is one of our greatest actors and look forward to seeing the film. I just get a little queasy about the business aspect of organized religion.

IMO, the focus of the question of God has changed in the last several years. However, those who are too close to the problem never notice the slow and subtle changes that take place. Have you noticed that it is getting VERY difficult to find a PAY PHONE these days? Probably not, because we all have CELL PHONES and the financial reality is that pay phones are now an antiquated technology.

I know Christians hate this word, but spiritual knowledge is EVOLVING just like everything else. The growing debate that will engage Christians more and more in the near future will not be "Christian vs. Atheist"- that's antiquated debate. The new debate is "Revelation" vs. "Reason."

My ideas about PanenDeism are not to show that Deism is "the answer." Indeed, Deism died out in the "marketplace" of spiritual ideas about 200 years ago for very good reason. My point is that the middle-ages based ideology of traditional Christianity cannot survive the power of rationality much longer.

As we move forward in time, into the SUPER high-tech era of nanotechnology, computer/robotic technology far more powerful than human, and virtual immortality, Christianity (if it does not adapt) will be relegated to the uneducated masses of the inner-city and third-world countries.

It just so happens that, a rational approach to Spirituality that actually embraces Science and Reason will usually be Deistic in nature. PanenDeism (or, "TransDeism", which is my term for a proposed model of a modern spirituality that is based on PanenDeism) is a proposed REFORM of classic Deism that can encompass all that we are learning scientifically.

I know I am rambling here, so I will close with this: The question we must bravely consider is NOT "Do you believe in God?", but rather, "What KIND of God do you believe in?" The antiquated ideas of classic Theism (traditional Christianity) is in real trouble trying to convince our more highly educated and sophisticated young people that God looks like a HUMAN male, sits on a white throne and displays childish, human emotion when dealing with his "chosen" people.

It's time to upgrade spirituality to something a thinking person can take seriously.

MrsHoppes · Sergeant Joined: Feb 08, 2004 Posts: 122 Location: USA

Sorry, but can't upgrade the ultimate Creator. I'm am not going to change Truth for less truth or watered down truth to make other people happy. That is not my primary purpose.

Yes, there are different gods, but there is One True God. The God of Israel. (And I am not talking about that country in the middle east.)

TMOV · Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject:

PanenDeist · Cadet Joined: Jan 10, 2004 Posts: 6 Location: USA

Mrs. Hoppes:

Your reply represents a very common error on the part of traditionals- You have a problem separating God from THE BELIEF about God. We are talking apbout upgrading THE BELIEF about God. It is the belief, the understanding of Diety that constantly changes across time and across the globe.

God is what it is, and we can benefit from the understanding of "...what God must Be, in order to Be at all", but only to the extent that our understanding matches reality.

Larry

ekrubtap · Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:13 pm Post subject:

Prince_Serendip · Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject:

Actually, it's called patriarchy, with traditions of misogyny. In a general way in ancient history humans first developed matrilineal process (where the genders are equal), followed by matriarchy (that didn't last very long) and then patriarchy. Patriarchy has deliberately misinterpreted the religious ideals of the Ways of the Great Mothers. For example, the snake in the tree is a symbol of wisdom and the apple is a symbol of the gift of immortality. Essentially, and much proven by current events, patriarchies are their own worst enemies. (I have always considered patriarchies to be spiritual infants.)

That should stir the pot, eh? ~wicked-winkz~

(btw, this is my 111th post. sheshesheshe!)

ekrubtap · Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 3:03 pm Post subject:

ekrubtap · Posted: Thu Mar 25, 2004 4:28 pm Post subject:

Just so you know I'm an equal opportunity athiest, here's some similar stuff from the Koran/Quran. (Move over Salmon Rushdie)

Chapter (Sura) 2, The Cow...
Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. (Ayah)223
A woman is worth one-half a man. 282

Chapter 4. The Women....
Males are to inherit twice that of females. 11
Instructions for exchanging wives 20
You can't have married women, unless they are captives. 24
Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 34
"Unto the male is the equivalent share of two females." 176

Ch.11. Hud....
Lot offers his daughters to a mob of angel rapers. 78

Ch.24. Light...
Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 31

etc, etc, ad infinitum and on and on....

There are a number of references to slaves in the Quran, though they seem to be somewhat less plentiful than those in the bible. Muslims seem to have seen the error of slavery and apparently made provision for freeing their slaves fairly early in their history.

Here's a thoughtful little tidbit from Sura 8. The Spoils of War....
When you fight with disbelievers, do not retreat. Those who do will go to hell. 15-16

SicPreFix · Sergeant Joined: Feb 21, 2004 Posts: 121 Location: Canada

It's quite a sorry story isn't it, the way the bible and peoples of the past treated the female. Such fear; such hatred; such intolerance.

Modern Islam is almost as scary as ancient Islam. And it looks like there are large swaths of modern Christianity that would beat women back to their place of belonging... er, that is, the biblical versions of their place of belonging. My own observation of women's place of belonging would probably imply something more liquorish, lubricious, and encompassing.

There are, apparently, one or two places in the bible where women are in fact treated with some courtesy, respect, and consideration. I believe - but I cannot prove it - that these few benign and positive mentions stem from either early judaic tradition or from ancient goddess worship that was either misunderstood and overlooked by the male biblical rewriters, or was simply deemed either too risky to remove, or not worth the effort.

But I must admit that that is simply supposition on my part.

BooRad · Sergeant Joined: Feb 13, 2004 Posts: 141 Location: USA

But then...we men think with 2 heads, we do...

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It appeared in the Atlanta Journal.

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Over 15,000 men found themselves talking to the Atlanta Humane Society
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Us men can be so easy, heh. Which head do you think with most of the time?

BooRad


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