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AmazingGrace
Cadet
Joined: Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 1
Location: USA
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 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject: Forgive & Ye Shall Be Forgiven |
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-/\-|Forgiveness|-/\-
Matthew 6:14 - For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Matthew 6:15 - But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 18:21 - Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Matthew 18:22 - Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Mark 11:25 - And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mark 11:26 - But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
Luke 6:37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Luke 11:4 - And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Luke 17:3 - Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 - And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
2 Corinthians 2:10 - To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Forgiveness is a great and awesome thing, forgive and you to will find forgiveness for yourself.
Bless Ye The Lord For He Is Good, Amen.
_________________
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 302
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2004 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Amen, Amazing G.
(except for the bit about confessing our sins)
_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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MrsHoppes
Sergeant
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 122
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Why not confess our sins?
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God said it. I believe it. That's that. |
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shamash
Corporal
Joined: Mar 21, 2004
Posts: 70
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:06 pm Post subject: Forgive & ye shall be forgiven |
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| Quote: |
| Why not confess our sins? |
Could you give your definition of 'sins' MrsHoppes? Thanks.
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MrsHoppes
Sergeant
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 122
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 01, 2004 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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Sin....
Defiance against God.
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God said it. I believe it. That's that. |
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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 302
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 1:44 am Post subject: |
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Dang, got me there.
But if I don't believe in God is it still a sin to defy?
And what is it that I am defying?
You know what it is.
Eternal adoration.
What the hell is that?
What kind of a god is it that is so insecure that the only end reward it can comprehend for creating everything is "they DO like me, they DO like me!"
Omni-what?
Are disbelievers condemned to be foisted upon a kebob and done to a turn whilst being force fed endless reruns of 100 Hundred Huntley St. on the off chance that they may not have accepted another human being's word that there is a supernatural being with his hand on the big switch?
If God is ethereal, how are we made in hisimage?
_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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MrsHoppes
Sergeant
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 122
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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We are made in His image and His likeness. He is superior to us and takes care of us. We are superior to all other creation (the earth) and have dominion over it and take care of it. That's the likeness. The image is what we had before Eve ate Adam out of house and home. Perfection. Rightousness. Obedience. Harmoney. We can still have those things, but it is not freely given. It was bought and paid for by the blood of Christ.
Question for you. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I wasted my Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights and did nothing more than try to live right and read a really really good book. That is if I am wrong. If I am right, what about you? What happens?
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God said it. I believe it. That's that. |
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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 302
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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| Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| MrsHoppes wrote: |
| Question for you. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I wasted my Sunday mornings and Wednesday nights and did nothing more than try to live right and read a really really good book. That is if I am wrong. If I am right, what about you? What happens? |
Good question. Of course I have to dissagree that all you are doing is "nothing more than try to live right and read a really really good book." While I believe your motive and intent are good, I also believe that you (and all people of religion) are (perhaps unconsciously) part of a support structure for a social system that has systematically held back the advancement of society and worse, has historically seen fit to torture and kill anyone opposed to their beliefs. western religion was born in a bloodbath, from the early Hebrews slaughtering other tribes (mainly for territory, oddly enough), through the early years of Christianity, post Constantine, when Christians evolved from the oppressed to the oppressors, the largely church induced "dark ages", the crusades, the many inquisitions, witch burnings, and the all but uncountable religious wars that have raged from prehistory through to today and beyond. As long as we have religion there will be no "Peace on Earth".
As to what happens if I'm wrong, you have to understand that the possibility is so far removed from reality as I percieve it so as to be almost beyond comprehension. But I'll try. The liturature is of no help in nailing down a concrete reply in that it supplies no one definitive result for "unbelievers". You have your heaven, your three heavens of Paul, your eight heavens of someone else, your limbos and pergatories, your hell and possibly numerous hellish levels.
I would have to think I would be alloted a spot in purgatory or where ever it is that the "good unbelievers" like Aristotle are apparently currently residing. Not too shabby a company. Probably more invigorating conversation than that possible in an atmosphere of eternal adoration.
You see, I, and the majority of thinking atheists also "try to live right and read a really really good book. "
_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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MrsHoppes
Sergeant
Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 122
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue May 04, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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How can a person "live right" if there are no concrete morals? Who defines your morals of right and wrong?
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SicPreFix
Sergeant
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 3:27 am Post subject: |
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A moral sense evolved in our species, and did not and does not need to be deduced from scratch by each one of us or discovered in a religious texts preaching so-called religiously moral way of life or philosophy. Children as young as a year and a half spontaneously give toys, proffer help, and try to comfort adults and other children who are visibly distressed. People in all cultures distinguish between right and wrong, have a sense of fairness, help one another, impose rights and obligations, believe that wrongs should be redressed, and proscribe rape and murder. The alternative to the religious theory of the source of values is that evolution endowed us with a moral sense, and we have expanded its circle of application through reason (grasping the logical interchangeability of our interests and others'), knowledge (learning of the advantages of cooperation over the long term), and sympathy (having experiences that allow us to feel other people's pain).
Here's a test to determine which theory would be preferable. A thought experiment can pit them against each other. What would be the right thing to do if God had commanded people to be selfish and cruel rather than generous and kind? Those who root their values in religion would have to say that we ought to be selfish and cruel. Those who appeal to a moral sense would say that we ought to reject God's command. This thought experiment is not just an idle time waster.
The history of religion shows that God has commanded people to do all manner of selfish and cruel acts: massacre Midianites and abduct their women, stone prostitutes, execute homosexuals, burn witches, slay heretics and infidels, throw Protestants out of windows, withold medicine from dying children, shoot up abortion clinics, hunt down Salmon Rushdie, blow themselves up in marketplaces, and crash airplanes into skyscrapers. Even Hitler thought he was carrying out the will of God. The recurrence of evil acts committed in the name of God shows that they are not random perversions. An omnipotent authority that no one can see is a useful backer for malevolent leaders hoping to enlist holy warriors. And since unverifiable beliefs have to be passed along from parents and peers rather than discovered in the world, they differ from group to group and become divisive identity badges.
| Quote: |
| How can a person "live right" if there are no concrete morals? Who defines your morals of right and wrong? |
Rather ask, How can a person live right if their morals of right and wrong are dictated by the anthropogenic and deeply belligerent phantasm called God?
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chickengirl
Sergeant
Premium Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 102
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Ekrubtap says:You have your heaven, your three heavens of Paul, your eight heavens of someone else, your limbos and pergatories, your hell and possibly numerous hellish levels. |
Not to be contentious, but it is my turn to ask "what Bible are YOU reading!"
There are 3 Heaven "Ages" not 3 heavens; there is no limbo, or pergatory...that is "another" of the doctrines of men...
When you die...everyone goes back to where they came from.
Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return (hmmm to return, would indicate you "came from" )unto God who gave it.
2 Corinthians 5:6 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Strongs Concordance:
#86-hades {hah'-dace}
Reference Root Word
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492
Part of Speech
Outline of Biblical Usage:
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
Strongs #1:A. Alpha.(as a contraction from 427 aneu=without) in the sense of privation.
#1492: eido=to know; be aware; behold, percieve, see, be sure, tell, understand, wish, wot. comp 3700...optanomai=to gaze, ie with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable.
In light of the above, read an account of hell in the book of Luke:
16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
16:23 And in hell (being "dead"-deprived-but now "seeing") he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (imho, this is from the "shame" he is now experiencing...have you ever "burned" with shame?)
16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Not one single person has been "judged" yet...that day will come, and it is called the Lords Day...God loves all his kids...He WILL give them every chance "even in hell"...
And SicPreFix...there is an astronomical difference between those that are spiritual, and those that are psychopathic and demented. There are also many that have commited atrocities, with no "religious" or spiritual affiliations whatsoever...Evil, is a respecter of no one particularized group.
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SicPreFix
Sergeant
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| ... there is an astronomical difference between those that are spiritual, and those that are psychopathic and demented. There are also many that have commited atrocities, with no "religious" or spiritual affiliations whatsoever...Evil, is a respecter of no one particularized group. |
Aside from the irrelevancy, your point being?
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chickengirl
Sergeant
Premium Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 102
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2004 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
SicPreFix says:
Quote:
... there is an astronomical difference between those that are spiritual, and those that are psychopathic and demented. There are also many that have commited atrocities, with no "religious" or spiritual affiliations whatsoever...Evil, is a respecter of no one particularized group.
Aside from the irrelevancy, your point being? |
Huh??? I will type a little slower... 
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SicPreFix
Sergeant
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 121
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 12:03 am Post subject: |
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No, you don't need to type slower. Type relevantly, by which I mean that my post was about moral sense and its probable evolution in our species.
Your comment regarding evil being no respector of any group while accurate is not relevant to my post.
That's all. |
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chickengirl
Sergeant
Premium Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 102
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 1:18 am Post subject: |
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Ok...in that case, you may want to read the topic of this thread.  ...
_________________
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. |
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