Forgive & Ye Shall Be Forgiven

SicPreFix · Sergeant Joined: Feb 21, 2004 Posts: 121 Location: Canada

Certainly, and indeed.

Done and done (I presume).

Smile

chickengirl · Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 12:23 pm Post subject:

SicPreFix · Sergeant Joined: Feb 21, 2004 Posts: 121 Location: Canada

Not so much inappropriate, but irrelevant, or at least not to the point and therefore misleading.

ekrubtap · Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 1:34 am Post subject:

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Moral evolution??????
OH, ... now I understand why the crime rate in this country went up around 300 percent between 1960 and 1996. Thanks for the clearification.
We are just getting better and better every day and now I know why!

Chickengirl,
I understood the relevancy and you did not even have to type slowly for me. But then, what do I know?

( I hope that this does not get me into trouble in the relevancy department since I tacked it on to another comment. Embarassed

)

ekrubtap · Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 10:28 am Post subject:

Have you checked the latest crime rates in your country, Zip? I don't have the figures handy but I believe I've seen remarks to the effect that crime rates have decreased or are stabilized (in effect a decrease given population growth, if not pro-rated)

I don't think crime rates per ce have any relation to the religio/atheistic debate. The percentages are probably similar across the board. Not all "religious" people are saints and not all "Atheists" are sinners. The ability for someone to be good or evil is not determined by their religious preference. It is determined by their personal philosophies which may come from sources other than religion.
Divine intervention is not a prerequisite to morality.

chickengirl · Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:40 pm Post subject: Regarding: The 3rd Heaven

2 Corinthians 12:2 Re: 3rd Heaven...

There are 3 world ages...one that was, one that is, and one that is to be...

The first being the one as it was, before the rebellion of Satan...
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. period!!!
Between verses 1 and 2 in this first chapter of Genesis, billions of years have passed.

There was a time before satans rebellion, when we were all happy campers, loving each other, and singing our little hearts out...
This time being, the first Heaven and Earth Age:
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

Job 38:5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

Job 38:6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Here is a little on the dinosaurs:
Job 40:15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.

Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.

Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.

Job 40:18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.

Job 40:19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.

Job 40:20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.

Then there was the rebellion, in which time satan deceived a third of the "children."
Read Ezekiel chapter 28...
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven...(hmmm, wonder who this 3rd of the stars is?)
which resulted in:
Genesis 1:2 and the earth became without form, and void (tohu va bohu) (probably why the North Pole is 90 miles away from magnetic North, and the dinosaurs bit the dust)
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo,there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. (Note: no man, no birds! Noah was a man with several birds!)

We are currently in the 2nd earth and heaven age...

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

Psalms 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Psalms 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

2Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: (this is NOT the flood of Noahs time)

2Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (again, not the flood of Noahs time)

2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (remember this when reading of the creation of this earth age. Genesis 1:3-31)

The purpose of man in the flesh is to learn of good and evil, and to chose between good and evil. (Deuteronomy 3O:15-20) Every man with the free-will to decide, born innocent.

The 3rd earth, and heaven age is yet to come:

Revelation 21:1-4 And I (John) saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. ...Ahhh...can't wait. Smile

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual...(in other words, spiritual in the first age; flesh, in the second; and finally in the 3rd age, and eternally, spiritual.)

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Ekrubtap, I did check the stats. I came across them a week of so ago when I was helping my daughter with a poject for school. I was actually surpirsed when I found them because I was aware that Crime in the United States declined during the 90's. The catch , of course, is that from 1960 to around 1991 Crime increased by something like 313 percent overall in this country then managed to decline to around 290 percent of the 1960 total by 1996. This was the last year that this study compiled stats. I am told that I am much safer where I live in Southern California than I was 10 years ago but the argument still stands that the rate of criminal activity is roughly 3 times what it was 45 years ago.

I know that this may be circumstantial but it is not hard to argue that an overall decline in moral values has infected this country and happens to coincide with this increase in the crime rate. I brought it up because it seem to me that "moral evolution" does not seem to be working.

Please do not give me a speech about how evolution works. I know how it works, I just do not accept it as responsible for my existance.

I could not agree with you more about the "morals" of people in general. I have many friends that do not believe in God or are at best passive about the subject. They are all, to a person, good people. I also know many "Christians" that are, frankly, not. Most of them are good people too.

The point is that ALL groups have problems with moral values and that these value are changing rapidly. When an absolute standard for moral behavior is missing we rely on what is " normal" too much. Normality is a dangerous standard because it is no absolute and thus subject to creep.

Laws can only go so far in inforcing behavior. This by the way, also includes Biblical law. The purpose of law is to reveal infractions, and suggest actions which may deter people from these infractions. Generally, laws have a less than satisifactory track record. The only thing that seems to work is when people WANT to keep the law which in effect changed the law into more of a list of characteristics of a lawfull society.

We make laws then change them or make new ones to supersede the old ones. Usually because the old one did not work. In the mean time lots of us bend or completely ignore the laws that inconvience us and go on our way. The tend that we are looking at is for those incidents that cause "moral" outrage for the highest percentage of the people. We call this Crime. This does not change the fact the most of us break and bend what we consider minor laws routinuely. This is what really erodes moral values. It does not matter if you are a hindi, athiest or christian, our society tends to allow moral behavior to slip as time goes on. I just can not see moral Evolution but I could accept moral devolution.

chickengirl · Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 3:44 pm Post subject:

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

It is hard being one of the little people. Boy, If I had to endure that attack, I just might have been insulted into changing my whole system of thought. After all, insults are such good tools of pursuasion. Laughing

I can see that you are about to crumble and confess that you are really an undereducated, easily manipulated religionist. Oh... I forgot irrelevant. Just stick that one in somewhere too.

That is an interesting idea about the childrens eyes. I have never heard it before.

ekrubtap · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 12:29 am Post subject:

You can't be serious with that 3 ages stuff CG. (Pre Adamic people,Satan boinked Eve??) This was an attempt in the early 1800s to adjust the bible to emerging scientific knowledge. Isn't it the "Holy Spirit's" job to lead you (christians) to truth? Why didn't it do the job properly from the start, aleviating the need for constant readjustment of belief through the ages? There was no biblical flood(s), there was no exodus. You have come perilisly close to being mocked on this one. Smile

ekrubtap · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 12:46 am Post subject:

Zippy.
Morality is not a biological trait, thereby probably not subject to evolutionary adaptability. Nor can there ever be an absolute morality. What is moral in one culture is not moral in another, What was moral (or immoral) forty years ago obviously might not be moral now. Evolution occurs over much longer periods of time (thousands or tens of thousands of years) so it can't be responsible for periodic peculiarities of morality. Morality is just another human invention, like language, the electric chair, and God.

chickengirl · Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:52 am Post subject:

Hey Ek...I am dead serious about my understanding of the scripture...and will forever, seek a deeper understanding.
If you want to mock ME, be my guest. I hope I have learned my lesson today. My heart is broken over sicprefix.
Just remember our Father is our closest relative, who loves us far beyond, our hope to ever begin to love each other... I don't want you to have to see you wish for the mountains to fall upon you. (Revelation 6:14-17) I love you...and hope this doesn't make you blow beach. Crying or Very sad

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived and deluded and misled; God will not allow Himself to be sneered at (scorned, disdained, or mocked by mere pretensions or professions, or by His precepts being set aside.) [He inevitably deludes himself who attempts to delude God.] For whatever a man sows, that and that only is what he will reap.

Tonights dinner: dandelion stew.

ekrubtap · Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 12:42 am Post subject:

Aw Chickengirl, I was just pulling your leg re previous references to mockery. I wouldn't truly mock you.
[quote]1 Corinthians 15:46

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Ekrubtap,
I agree with you. Morality is not biological. I do think that there is absolute morality but that it is only attainable in a context of a single society. As a Christian, I believe that someday this will happen but do not see it happening on the earth as it is today.

My arguement was directed as Sicprefix assertion that high moral standards can evolve separately from religion. Sic points out that children will share with others at a very young age. I do not know how applicable this is the the subject since the children are most certainly taught that sharing is good by caring parents. That children are good has more to do with their innocence and the teaching of high moral values by their parents than with inherent morality. Jesus said that we must by like children, not because they are inherently good but because they are trusting and willing to be taught.

At this point in our society, most of our moral values are linked to religious morals. Even those who profess no religious affiliations must keep laws and mores rooted in religion. Every society that I can think of that eliminated God and religious morals, degenerated rapidly. Look at France around the time of the revolution or Russia after Lenin. Look at our own society now. We are not getting better as we drift from God.


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