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JackBenny
Sergeant
Joined: Jul 12, 2002
Posts: 140
Location: USA
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 Posted: Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:27 am Post subject: One perspective on Anti-Americanism |
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Here's an article I found that delivers a point of view (one with which I agree), that the real reason for 9/11 had less to do with what we've done in (or to) the world, and more to do with what we've failed to do.
It begins by giving the authors opinion about western intellectuals' claims of "we had it coming"................
| Quote: |
However tactfully you dress it up, the United States had it coming.
—Mary Beard, about September 11
… the greatest source of terrorism on earth.
—Harold Pinter, about the United States
The real matter is the extinction of America, and God willing, it will fall to the ground.
—Mullah Mohammed Omar, Taliban leader
We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.
—Hussein Massawi, former Hezbollah leader
The first thing to note about these statements by the classicist Mary Beard, the playwright Harold Pinter, and the Islamofascists Mohammed Omar and Hussein Massawi is that they could quickly be multiplied tenfold. You will find similar statements circulating at almost any American or European university, throughout the American and European (and Arabic) press, in mosques and madrassahs—almost anywhere, in fact, that intellectual elites, or Islamic terrorists, congregate. Anti-Americanism, in both its patently murderous and fatuously sophisticated forms, is a growth industry.
Is there a connection between the Mary Beards and what Mark Steyn has aptly dubbed the weird beards of the world?—between the prattling intellectuals and the pragmatic terrorists? In an important sense the answer is Yes. “Ideas,” the political philosopher Richard Weaver observed in his signature phrase, “have consequences,” even bad ideas, even silly ideas, even ideas that could only come from the mind of a privileged Western intellectual too infatuated with his own importance to notice fundamental political realities. This is not to suggest that Harold Pinter (say) is responsible for Mullah Omar; it is to suggest that he helps create a climate of opinion where Mullah Omars have a better chance of thriving.
Pinterism (if I may thus eponymize this brand of intellectualizing self-hatred) is not a new phenomenon. George Orwell noted something similar in his anatomy of the pacifism that was rampant in English intellectual circles before and during World War II. The “unadmitted motive” of pacifism, Orwell wrote, was “hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism.” Harold Pinter is no John Walker Lindh. You won’t find him joining up with the Taliban. But you will find him in sympathy with his spiritual colleague-in-rhetoric Susan Sontag, who explained that the assualt of September 11 was “not a ‘cowardly’ attack on ‘civilization’ or ‘liberty’ or ‘humanity’ or ‘the free world’ but an attack on the world’s self-proclaimed superpower, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions… . [W]hatever may be said of the perpetrators of [September 11’s] slaughter, they were not cowards.” Does she say, then, that they were murderous fanatics? Hardly. Sontag (like Pinter) is at once too ambivalent and too admiring for that: too ambivalent about the “world’s self-proclaimed superpower” (or “rogue state,” as Pinter put it) and too admiring of the insurrectionists. In this context, it is worth remembering Orwell’s observation about the “processes by which pacifists who have started out with an alleged horror of violence end up with a marked tendency to be fascinated by the successes and power of Nazism.” |
Full Article http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/...imball.htm
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TopDog
Corporal
Premium Member
Joined: Mar 23, 2003
Posts: 72
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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| This is all Im going to say. The perpetrators of Sept 11, were cowards, nothing more. If they were not cowards let them fight like men not cowardly murders. They had not the character to fight other men as men do. |
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Rik
Sergeant
Joined: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 76
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2003 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Amen TD.... |
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Beady
Private
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Posts: 49
Location: Afghanistan
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| TopDog wrote: |
| If they were not cowards let them fight like men not cowardly murders. They had not the character to fight other men as men do. |
I find it difficult to call anyone willing to die for his beliefs a coward. He may be a terrorsist/murderer, but not a coward. In this context, Cowardice is a charge levelled against the winners by the losers. I seem to recall the American colonials were called cowards by the British, and later the Japanese by the Americans, for similar reasons. Come to think of it, the Americans have been called cowards because our stand-off weapons allow us to fight from a distance, rather than face-to-face.
I also think there is some justice to Muslim charges of American arrogance. We're the biggest kid on the block so we want to name the game and dictate the rules, regardless of what the other kids want to play. Granted, we don't mean to do harm, but we are also blind to and uheeding of the harm we may be doing. Maybe we'd have fewer problems if we'd shut up on occasion and listen to the other kids.
_________________
Beady's 11th Law of Social Harmonics: "Your spouse is precisely the kind of person that someone like you would marry. Think about it."
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TopDog
Corporal
Premium Member
Joined: Mar 23, 2003
Posts: 72
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Beady Wrote:
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| I find it difficult to call anyone willing to die for his beliefs a coward. He may be a terrorsist/murderer, but not a coward. In this context, Cowardice is a charge levelled against the winners by the losers. |
First they did not die to free their people or a noble cause, they did it to gain access to virgins, so they were told.
Second they could have died fighting other combatants not innocent women and children. They could have fought by attacking military targets but they didn't have the guts to do that.
Third if you cant see the difference between slaughtering innocent women and children and America fighting for independence from the British then you are blind. I'm not trying to point fingers, but I gather from your statements you have neither fought in combat or served in the military. If you had seen war first hand then you might be able to understand the difference between killing the innocent and justly fighting other combatants. Become a combat veteran then come back and talk to me about it who is a hero and who is a coward.
You may find this hard to believe coming from a retired Marine, but I agree with you on this part of what you said:
Beady Wrote:
| Quote: |
| Granted, we don't mean to do harm, but we are also blind to and uheeding of the harm we may be doing. Maybe we'd have fewer problems if we'd shut up on occasion and listen to the other kids. |
But that is all you said that I agree with.
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keebler31r
Cadet
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Posts: 1
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| I'm an United States Army Soldier. I am Currently in Iraq. If you think for one minute the the arab counties like us even for one minute then you are ether a Fool or and idiot or both. I have seen first hand how much they hate both the americian life style and unlike what some people say It's not about being the biggest kid on the block. They hate everything America stands for. The way of life, The Freedoms and most of all what they consider our sins. |
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Rik
Sergeant
Joined: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 76
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:53 am Post subject: |
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And as an ex Army Scout who has been there...in the first conflict, you are both right. Americans are Infidels and as such they are taught to hate us.
_________________
*Toujours Pret* |
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Rik
Sergeant
Joined: Apr 25, 2003
Posts: 76
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Beady
Private
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Posts: 49
Location: Afghanistan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TopDog wrote: |
| First they did not die to free their people or a noble cause, they did it to gain access to virgins, so they were told. |
Yes, because that's the Muslim idea of Paradise. Everyone, regardless of his religion or political views, who sees himself as a martyr expects that his martyrdom will guarantee his entry into his idea of Paradise. How does this make him a coward?
They could, of course, have flown their planes into military bases, but why would that have taken more "guts"? Either way, they're just as dead.
| Quote: |
| Third if you cant see the difference between slaughtering innocent women and children and America fighting for independence from the British then you are blind. |
You are confusing tactics with cause. It's a little like saying the Spanish Inquisition was valid because it served Christianity, or that the "Trail of Tears" was a good thing because it made America a bit safer for the settlers.
The Muslim extremists know what they're up against, so they're looking for a way they can fight us on somewhat equal terms. They know they don't stand a chance on the battlefield, so they have to find another way to fight.
They're going to keep trying different tactics until they find something that works. Whatever works, it will probably be something we're not prepared to deal with. We won't be prepared to deal with it because we've refused to look at things from their viewpoint. We won't have looked at things from their viewpoint, because we think their viewpoint is wrong and "cowardly."
Point being, dismissing them as mere cowards plays right into their hands.
| Quote: |
| I'm not trying to point fingers, but I gather from your statements you have neither fought in combat or served in the military. |
Wrong, on both counts. I also have two sons on active duty. And here's a thought that should scare the daylights out of you: I work in the Department of Homeland Security.
_________________
Beady's 11th Law of Social Harmonics: "Your spouse is precisely the kind of person that someone like you would marry. Think about it."
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Beady
Private
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Posts: 49
Location: Afghanistan
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| keebler31r wrote: |
| They hate everything America stands for. The way of life, The Freedoms and most of all what they consider our sins. |
And *why* do they hate all those things?
_________________
Beady's 11th Law of Social Harmonics: "Your spouse is precisely the kind of person that someone like you would marry. Think about it."
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TopDog
Corporal
Premium Member
Joined: Mar 23, 2003
Posts: 72
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Allot of good points brought up. Before we go on to argue back and fourth please take a moment and just answer this for me. Beady do you think the Terrorists are justified in their tactics? Do you respect them for blowing up the towers?
Now I will attempt to addres the rest of it:
Beady wrote:
| Quote: |
| They could, of course, have flown their planes into military bases, but why would that have taken more "guts"? Either way, they're just as dead. |
If they had attacked a military base in a military aircraft they would have been fighting. If they had made kamikaze attacks on military bases, engaging other combatants they would have been fighting. They chose not to engage any combatants, instead they chose to murder innocent women and children and then kill themselves so that would not have to face the consequences of killing innocent women and children. You say they died for what they believe in, I say they did nothing more than commit a heinous act of murder and then escape facing up to what they did by killing themselves. I beleive the sucide part of their endevor is nothing more than an escape.
Beady wrote:
| Quote: |
The Muslim extremists know what they're up against, so they're looking for a way they can fight us on somewhat equal terms. They know they don't stand a chance on the battlefield, so they have to find another way to fight.
They're going to keep trying different tactics until they find something that works. Whatever works, it will probably be something we're not prepared to deal with. We won't be prepared to deal with it because we've refused to look at things from their viewpoint. We won't have looked at things from their viewpoint, because we think their viewpoint is wrong and "cowardly."
Point being, dismissing them as mere cowards plays right into their hands. |
Here's the difference, we could do the same thing. We could go in and poison them / blow them up / use a biological agent, on all of them, suspect / confirmed terrorists, women & children, dog & cats, wipe them out. Problem solved. Then we have to face the consequences for what we consider the wrongful killing of non combatants. It would be easier for us and safer for us instead of sending in ground troops. But we don't do that, because were not cowards for one thing. We could not justify killing the innocent, the suicide terrorists do but never face what they have done, they chose to take the easy way out.
I don't think I will ever convince you they are cowards and you will never convince me they are not. How does "dismissing" them as cowards play into their hands? I'm not dismissing them, I'm labeling them. They are without a doubt both dangerous and a threat.
Beady wrote:
| Quote: |
| Wrong, on both counts. I also have two sons on active duty. And here's a thought that should scare the daylights out of you: I work in the Department of Homeland Security. |
TopDog wrote:
| Quote: |
| I'm not trying to point fingers, but I gather from your statements you have neither fought in combat or served in the military. |
As I said, not trying to point fingers, never heard the terrorists called anything but cowards down at my local VFW. Naturally I get the impression that you did not form your opinion by first hand experience, never assume. I stand by my statements. It doesn't scare me that your in the Department of Homeland Security, our strength is in our differences.
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Skipdawg
Lieutenant
Joined: Apr 16, 2002
Posts: 241
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Folks to really understand it all you have to understand both sides of thought. Not just the basics but know the ins and outs of it if you don't you can not really comprehend the concept of though viewed from both sides.
I was in that region a few times in the Mid-80's on Ops that are still classified so can not go into details of where or exactly when. But we had to learn their ways in a big way.
They are taught from childhood that we are the children of the devil basically. To them we are the evil ones. |
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Beady
Private
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Posts: 49
Location: Afghanistan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TopDog wrote: |
| Allot of good points brought up. Before we go on to argue back and fourth please take a moment and just answer this for me. Beady do you think the Terrorists are justified in their tactics? Do you respect them for blowing up the towers? |
Regarding their tactics, it depends on context. They are justified in the sense that the terrorists can't hope to deal with us on a level playing field; they have to do the unexpected. That is simply good tactical thinking. They are not justified in the sense that modern civilized behavior has ruled civilian targets off-limits. However, this is a very fragile attitude and is completely forgotten as soon as civilians get in the way; it wouldn't take long to find towns that were plowed under during, say, WW2, as the fronts rolled back and forth across them (I understand there was one town in Poland that changed hands nine or 10 times).
Do I respect them? Yes, I do, in the sense that one respects a coiled rattlesnake. The WTC attack was morally reprehensible and tactically brilliant (although it may well turn out to have been strategically stupid). I won't insult you by thinking you'd be so crass as to mean "respect" in the sense of "admire."
| Quote: |
Beady wrote:
"They could, of course, have flown their planes into military bases, but why would that have taken more "guts"? Either way, they're just as dead."
If they had attacked a military base in a military aircraft they would have been fighting. |
Oh, I agree. But I was addressing your assertion that they were cowards. No one, no one, who sacrifices himself for a cause is a coward. He may well be a murding son-of-a-bitch, but he is not a coward. Like it or not, even your worst enemies are possessed of some otherwise admirable qualities; the Islamic terrorists are ruthless and fanatical, but they are also brave and resourceful. Believe me, I wish it were otherwise; we'd all be a lot better off.
| Quote: |
| I beleive the sucide part of their endevor is nothing more than an escape. |
From what?
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| Here's the difference, we could do the same thing. We could go in and poison them / blow them up / use a biological agent, on all of them, suspect / confirmed terrorists, women & children, dog & cats, wipe them out. Problem solved. |
That would be a very good way to get ourselves blown up. The rest of the world will (barely) stand for us invading nation after nation, so long as we do it via accepted methods. If we start acting like a rabid animal, though, it wouldn't be long before the international community would treat us as one. As it is, that's about the only reason the Arab nations haven't banded together to oppose us, because we can claim to be defending ourselves against murderers, and are fighting by "the rules." If we start acting like the murderers we're fighting, we lose the right to that claim.
| Quote: |
| I'm not dismissing them, I'm labeling them. They are without a doubt both dangerous and a threat. |
It's quite possible, and often happens, that cowards can be described with those terms. However, cowards turn and run at the slightest hint of danger, and only act if their escape is assured. They do not ensure the success of their mission by foregoing any chance of survival.
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| It doesn't scare me that your in the Department of Homeland Security, our strength is in our differences. |
What scares me is hearing our enemies described as cowards. People come up with labels so that things (and people) can be described without explanation. Explanation requires that the speaker thinks about and understands what he is saying; substitute a label for the explanation and you remove both thought and understanding from the description.
_________________
Beady's 11th Law of Social Harmonics: "Your spouse is precisely the kind of person that someone like you would marry. Think about it."
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Beady
Private
Joined: Jun 15, 2003
Posts: 49
Location: Afghanistan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Skipdawg wrote: |
| They are taught from childhood that we are the children of the devil basically. To them we are the evil ones. |
And the question then becomes, What have we done, and what are we doing, to convince them that they are wrong?
_________________
Beady's 11th Law of Social Harmonics: "Your spouse is precisely the kind of person that someone like you would marry. Think about it."
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READYFREDDY
Guest
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| Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2003 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| wrote: |
| Skipdawg wrote: |
| They are taught from childhood that we are the children of the devil basically. To them we are the evil ones. |
And the question then becomes, What have we done, and what are we doing, to convince them that they are wrong?
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Islam has been at war with the west (Christians & Jew) for 1000 years. They will eventually win, because no one has the balls to tell the truth. Either we outlaw Islam as a terrorist/treasonous manifesto under a false guise of religion, and stop it's spread here, or we become Israel II. Their "god" is in Mecca in a temple a black stone of Satan and they worship murder as holy. Continuation of pacifism will be the death of the west, so submit to allah or die, or be a real man and shout at the devil. Stop looking at this through western eyes and brain, this is cultural racism and hate towards Jews and Christians, and has festered 1000 years, and there would never have been a Europe had we not driven back the muslims these 1000 years. A wild, senseless attacking animal only kills, so it is your choice, be a weak-kneed peacenik for a wrong cause or be a real peacenik and shout at the devils the murderers of innocent Jews, Christians and children and demand punishment onto this false religion of death and hate and shout them down, drive them out and give them no quarter, or all of us are doomed, and I fear we are too late. If not for your chicken hearted selves speak out for the unborn, the future people of the west who will become slaves to mecca. Is that what you want? Write the coward politicians who have sold out all of us for oil or to be elected and who have us under the leash of the U.N. Demand that we arrest the leaders of this disease, and go to the birthplace of the anti-christs's main base (Iran) where in 1979, the monster mullahs murdered their way to power, as our nation trembled (until Ronald Reagan). Be the ally of Isreal (Jews) and love and support them, and tell the US to leave them alone, and let the Jews attack the filthy bums in their dirty nightshirts, and lets see how brave the hiding in a rat hole type fellas they are. Murderers are cowards period. Finally THINK AS THEY DO, NOT FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE AND GOD BLESS THE SOLDIERS WHO SPOKE THE TRUTH IN THIS THREAD, FOR THEY ARE MY HERO'S
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