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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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 Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:35 am Post subject: |
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Hey there TMOV
Ah yes, the ol' Mary switcheroo. I did come across it. However Mary was a relative (a relative, not an in-law) of Elizabeth, who was decended from Aaron. Aaron was of the tribe of Levi. (Exodus 4:14) Therefore Mary was a descendent of the tribe of Levi, not the tribe of Judah from whom King David was descended. Nowhere do you see "Mary, of the House of David". Lots of references to "Joseph, of the House of David"
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh... (Romans 1:3)
The Greek word for "seed" is "sperma." Strong's Concordance states under reference 4690:
That's seed, not ovum of David.
Just as well JC wasn't of the House of David. He'd have been disappointed in the lack of a throne to occupy because God had told another whopper....
"Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven." (Psalms 89:35-37) Note that God says forever, as in now. And also note that God put his holiness on the line. This could explain a lot.
I did goof, though. Jesus (if he did exist) could have been the Messiah. Given that Joseph's seed actually did find it's way to Mary's ovum (the only way JC could be of the House of David) Christ comes from the Greek Christos which means "annointed. Messiah is Hebrew for "annointed" Nothing Godly in the titles, just what they did to kings, annoint them with oil upon succesion to the throne, as David was annointed. The Romans threw a monkey wrench into the plans, though. Jesus was probably a mujahedin struggling against the Roman oppressor.
Interesting discussion on the Mary lineage possibility on this "Jews for Jesus" (gotta love it) discussion board.... http://www.jewsforjesus.org/dc/dcboard....&mode=full
These people take this stuff a lot more seriously than I do.
Cheers.........
_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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TMOV
Colonel
Premium Member
Joined: Feb 05, 2004
Posts: 1566
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 1:49 am Post subject: |
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what a testamony on the day of your awakening.
you are going to be a powerful testator when that happens.
what?!!!!!
you say!!!!!
paul was struck blind on the road to damascus and when the LORD SPOKE TO HIM he said WHO ART THOU ,LORD?
I AM THE ONE WHO YOU PERSECUTE.
IT IS DIFFICULT TO KICK AGAINST THE GOADS.
YUP! AND THE REST IS HISTORY ABOUT THE MAN LAYING HANDS ON HIM AND THEN THE SCALES FELL FROM HIS EYES AND HE DIDNT SEE THINGS THE SAME ANYMORE.
EVEN POISONOUS SERPENTS BIT HIM AND HE JUST FLUNG THEM IN THE FIRE AND EVERYONE WAS AMAZED.
YES YES ,, HE IS THE ONE!!!
HE WILL ADMIT US TO ZION, THE NEW CITY OF JERUSALEM.
HE IS THE ONE!!!
T |
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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2004 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| TMOV wrote: |
IT IS DIFFICULT TO KICK AGAINST THE GOADS.
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Didn't this expression appear somewhere in the old testament?
_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I guess it was just the alternate version in Acts, though goads are mentioned in 1 Sam.
Ac 9:5 -
And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
Ac 26:14 -
And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Though Saul has difficulty getting his story straight....
Acts 9:7 "And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man."
Acts 22:9 "And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me."
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him.--Ezekiel 14:9
_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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chickengirl
Sergeant
Premium Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Hey All...
Regarding Pauls being an apostle:
in Acts 9:7 ...they heard a VOICE...but saw no MAN...Sauls companions heard the voice, (actually sound) but did not distinguish the words spoken...
in Acts 22:9 They saw the Light...(not Man) and heard not the voice...(the words)...
I couldn't find any discrepancy in Acts 26, at least nothing that jumped out at me...
Regarding 2Timothy 3:16 & 17, and Isaiah 55:11...I do believe His Word is Inspired, and in those that are inspired by it, it does not return to Him void. He struck "paydirt" with this girl...
Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God...
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Jeremiah 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
Zechariah 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
However, this Word will mean nothing, unless one desires with an open HEART,& asking in earnest, for understanding...For those of you that have children, you know when they are sincere, or when they are smirking behind your back...(parents have eyes in the back of their head too  )
Regarding, Mary's lineage: This is a little harder for me to digout...at one time I thought I had it down... trying to unearth it once again, it is elusive...I do know that Mary's mother, and Elizabeth were from the tribe of Levi...I can't seem to find her fathers lineage...and I think that that is where the tribe of Judah may come in? As reckoned by law Jesus was Joseph's Son...By His birth, the prophesy of Genesis 3:15 was fulfilled...thru Mary's Seed, or posterity.
btw, ekrubtap...thanks for the link for the "Jews for Jesus" site. You certainly are keeping me on my toes...   |
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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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| Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2004 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| chickengirl wrote: |
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Jeremiah 17:23 But they obeyed not, neither inclined their ear, but made their neck stiff, that they might not hear, nor receive instruction.
Zechariah 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.
Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. |
Looks like Christianity was somewhat of a tough sell initially. But then along came Constantine.
Here's JC's family tree, chickengirl. I found it at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline.../tree.html
Click on the little pic and it will open full size in a new window.
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_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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chickengirl
Sergeant
Premium Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the link ekrubtap...I did check it out, but it is still buggin' me that I can't come up with the lineage specifically for Mary...maybe it is not possible to satisfy this particular curiosity...It just always seems to stem from Joseph...I did find this info in the Smiths Bible Dictionary...but I doubt it would satisfy an unbeliever...
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Dictionaries...mber=T1642
It is so hard to explain how one can come to such a deep belief...but after time, so many of the "biggies" add up, that you begin to trust that the "details" will become clear, one by one, a little further down the road... |
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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2004 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, I have the Crosswalk link in my favorites. Use it often.
However this makes no sense to me at all....
Smith's BibleDictionary sez....
| Quote: |
The genealogy of St. Matthew is Joseph’s genealogy as legal successor to the throne of David. St. Luke’s is Joseph’s private Genealogy, exhibiting his real birth as David’s son, and thus showing why he was heir to Solomon’s crown. The simple principle that one evangelist exhibits that genealogy which contained the successive heir to David’s and Solomon’s throne, while the other exhibits the paternal stem of him who was the heir, explains all the anomalies of the two pedigrees, their agreements as well as their discrepancies, and the circumstance of there being two at all.
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(A) Surely two differing geneologies would, at a minimum, bring suspicion upon the head of the pretender to the throne.
(B) I can't see how a person could have a different lineage to show how he arrived at his job, as opposed to who he was.
(C) Luke's lineage is actually Mary's. There is no biblical foundation for this claim. Latterday wishful thinking.
| Quote: |
| Mary, the mother of Jesus, was in all probability the daughter of Jacob, and first cousin to Joseph her husband. |
Well I just toured a few sites and they all had different stories re Mary's lineage and her relationship to Joseph. Religion sure is adaptable.
_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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chickengirl
Sergeant
Premium Member
Joined: Apr 01, 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Montana
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:02 pm Post subject: |
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OOO...I was looking for a site that had the Companion Bible, which I study with and found these interesting tidbits...Ekrubtap...you are correct that it is Mary's lineage in Luke chp 3...the following links will clarify...(maybe  )Smiths Dictionary is incorrect to say they are 2 different genealogies for Joseph...
study of Matthew, Chapter 1...(also further down the page, Luke 3)
http://biblestudysite.com/ccvvmt1.htm
The 2 genealogies of Matthew 1, and Luke 3
http://www.biblestudysite.com/99.htm
David's Throne. Chart showing Jesus Genealogies and the Line of the Throne.
http://www.theseason.org/throne.htm
This is the Royal Line chart, from the British Museum.
http://www.theseason.org/jeremiah/royal.htm |
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ekrubtap
Captain
Joined: Feb 17, 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Geez if you believe in Honkus
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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OK chickengirl……from that first site…..
| Quote: |
| Verse one of this chapter mentions that this is the "generation of Jesus Christ," but as we will see, it is not the literal bloodline of Jesus but is the adoptive family line. |
=== Well of course we should never take “the word of God” literally. The bible seems to mean whatever the interpreter of the day decides.
| Quote: |
| This "Melchizedek" was Jesus Christ in a different entity, way before His time was to be: |
=== yup, sure, OK, I believe you, no really, uh huh uh huh.
| Quote: |
| like unto the Son of God = Because He was the Son of God, He was Jesus Christ. |
=== “like unto” in any language means “similar to”, never “was”.
| Quote: |
| Mary's father was of the tribe of Judah with a family tree that goes all the way back to Adam from the Garden of Eden, and thus from God Almighty, for God formed Adam. |
=== I have to say I’m kind of impressed by whoever in the early centuries of Christianity assembled the resources to put these genealogies together. Nary a gap, an unbroken lineage back to creation. And I, and the majority of modern day geneologists, are fortunate to be able to trace back a couple of hundred years. With computers. The early biblicist’s feat is astounding. Simply…..unbelievable.
| Quote: |
Luke 3:23-38
23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, |
=== Now the biblical apologists state that this is simply the way they recorded genealogies back in those days (the more abundant of several excuses proffered for the “son of Heli” thing.) Joseph the son in law is culturally referred to as Joseph the Son (of Mary’s father, Heli). But this, or any other “through Mary’s line” argument doesn’t gibe with repeated statements of JC being of the “seed” of David. ie. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh... (Romans 1:3) David’s “seed” could not be passed through a woman. Especially given the low regard with which women were viewed in biblical times. The seed according to the flesh would become an ovum according to the flesh thereby braking the “His seed shall endure for ever,” promise of Palms 89.
| Quote: |
| Matthew 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. |
=== these folks were Hebrew, there was as of yet no Holy Ghost, no trinity. The only mention of a holy spirit in the old testament is in relation to God’s holy spirit, not as a separate entity. I do believe the Christians transmorgrafied God’s holy spirit into the Holy Ghost in the NT. Joseph would have had no idea what the angel was talking about. And this was a dream. (Such a dream I had last night, some crazy shlemeil angel. On and on he goes with this shmuck holy ghost of God shpeil. Like I don’t know from ghosts and God) (With apologies to any Jewish lurkers)
I guess, with all the explanatory permutations available by the miracle of Christian interpretation the only real option left to me is to attack the alleged veracity of both genealogies. They are just too complete. One would expect a gap or two given the resources available at the time and the many upheavals in the Jewish OT world. Just too good to be true.
_________________
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He was a wise man who invented God.
Plato (427? - 348? CE)
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MrsHoppes
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Joined: Feb 08, 2004
Posts: 122
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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My SIL has a huge wall poster of Jesus' family tree going back to Adam and Eve.
Also, one of the gospels has the tree from Joseph's side, one Mary's side.
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