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DeleterFX
1st Responder Trainee
Premium Member
Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 146
Location: USA
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 Posted: Mon May 24, 2004 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| G-Spot wrote: |
| I think we need to consider that conflicts between Islam and the West are fed on deeply rooted cultural differences. That being said, I cannot accept their culture's absolute refusal and negation of mine. In my value system, they are free to assimilate or be themselves as long as they don't impede on my freedoms... in their system of values I am flagged for death (sanctioned by God). |
| Thriller wrote: |
| Different cultures have different belief systems and you cannot impose one way of thinking on people who have developed a different way of life and culture over a 1,000 years or more of history. I am certainly not condoning terrorism as such a "way of life", merely accepting that it is a particular response from a small group of people who feel disenfranchised for a number of reasons. |
If you take the first quote's logic (which I agree with), and apply it to the second quote, you get an odd reversal in roles for the second quote. They are trying to impose their ways on us, "we" (as the non-muslim world (not bashing muslims here))are wrong, "they" are right. We are evil to believe in what we believe in and thus are punished for it. We did not go to their homes and attack civilians to teach them a lesson about God, which is the basis for their attacks on us, they came here.
It is true this "war" has been going on for longer than any of us have been around for and the many generations before us, but it does come to show, They are bred to hate us because of our beliefs and they have showed they will do anything to bring us down. I'm willing to fight for my beliefs if someone has the gaul to try and put theirs on me forcefully and I support the United States for protecting my right to think the way I want.
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Scrapeape
Cadet
Joined: May 29, 2004
Posts: 1
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| TopDog wrote: |
| This is all Im going to say. The perpetrators of Sept 11, were cowards, nothing more. If they were not cowards let them fight like men not cowardly murders. They had not the character to fight other men as men do. |
Well, our men fight by pushing buttons and dropping bombs on civilian areas and purchasing/funding/stooping to anything that will allow us to fight without fighting.
_________________
let shower devour the smoldering flower and permeate soil for seedling to boil.
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Archon_Wing
1st Responder
Joined: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 58
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat May 29, 2004 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| The 9/11 hijackers delierabately choose a civiliian target in an attempt to cause panic. There is no excuse for justifying that. Comparing that to a war is not really fair at all. Why do you think people were much more over in shock about the World Trade Center than the Pentagon, not saying a plane crashing into the Pentagon is any small matter. |
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Thriller
Trooper
Joined: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Mon May 31, 2004 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| DeleterFX wrote: |
| If you take the first quote's logic (which I agree with), and apply it to the second quote, you get an odd reversal in roles for the second quote. They are trying to impose their ways on us, "we" (as the non-muslim world (not bashing muslims here))are wrong, "they" are right. We are evil to believe in what we believe in and thus are punished for it. We did not go to their homes and attack civilians to teach them a lesson about God, which is the basis for their attacks on us, they came here. |
I don't see any inconsistency in the two views you quoted. Perhaps westerners don't see it this way, but traditional societies feel threatened (and always have done) by what we call "progress". This is what I meant when I referred to the west "imposing" its way of thinking on the rest of the world.
Like many others however, my biggest criticism of Islam is its refusal to accept other points of view and to agree to live with the differences. We are all a product of our environment, and we in the west have been taught to tolerate other ideals. This fundamental failing of Islam (my opinion) in itself is not at all related to the terrorism issue - terrorism is not condoned by the Islamic establishment and is in fact a long way removed from Muslim ideals. No, it is on a day to day level that you see the effects of this bigotry. This is what westerners find very difficult to understand since they have been brought up in an environment that encourages free thinking....or at least, has done so for the last 100 years or so. I can understand how this thinking has developed, but I still strongly disagree with it. But then again, I've been brought up to cherish the principle of free choice - a majority of the world's population have not been so fortunate (again, the use of the word "fortunate" is my own value judgment).
From a social historical perspective, Islam is still where the western world was up until perhaps the 1800's. The process of liberatisation was only begun in the west with the reformation in the 16th century, and has been a slow process, altering the balance of power away from the church and towards secular government, which in turn gave the people more freedoms. Most Islamic cultures as far as I am aware are controlled by despotic or near-despotic governments, in whose interests it is to retain tight control over its people. While we blame Islam for this, it is really a combination of religion and official repression. The propaganda machine then works overtime to convince the masses that the west is evil....and no better example exists that the Iragi regime, which despite its claims could hardly be considered an Islamic regime.
The challenge for Islam is how to embrace industrialisation and infinite freedom of information that has been introduced to the world really only in the last 20 years through mass computerisation.
I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this, and I know I'm rambling a little. But the bottom line is, religious and cultural differences are merely the mirrors that are used to disguise the real problem - social and wealth inequities between societies. These have always existed, but the battles resulting from these inequities have in the past been fought on distant battlefields. With the immense wealth brought by middle-eastern oil money and the modernisation of the world, the battles are now being brought into our home with deadly effect.
As for this quote:
| Archon_Wing wrote: |
| The 9/11 hijackers delierabately choose a civiliian target in an attempt to cause panic. There is no excuse for justifying that. Comparing that to a war is not really fair at all. Why do you think people were much more over in shock about the World Trade Center than the Pentagon, not saying a plane crashing into the Pentagon is any small matter. |
While I agree with the sentiments expressed, I'm afraid this is just incorrect. In the minds of the people who perpetrate these crimes, there is a real war going on. They cannot hope to fight and win this war using age-old conventional methods, so they do it using guerilla tactics. This doesn't make it right, or any more justifiable than the wars that the west has fought against the "east" in times gone by. But it is nevertheless a war - a war that cannot be won by conquering or occupying the people.
To answer the last question, my own opinion, sadly, is that the reason people were in such shock over the WTC crash was because it happened in the west, and more particularly in the USA.
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DeleterFX
1st Responder Trainee
Premium Member
Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 146
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Civilians Don't fight wars, soldiers do. It's just like the DC sniper going after innocent people who couldnt fight back, just killing them. It's wrong, The WTC arent military targets they're civilian buildings, the reason they hit them WAS to spread panic, if we wanted to fight like they do there would be no middle east left, but we dont target civilians, they, unfortunately may be hit by explosions but means are taken to prevent this. They took means to HIT civilians and only civilians. Thank god people on that flight over PA had the nerve and patriotism to retake the plane and probably save the lives of countless others. |
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Thriller
Trooper
Joined: Jan 14, 2004
Posts: 31
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| DeleterFX wrote: |
| Civilians Don't fight wars, soldiers do. It's just like the DC sniper going after innocent people who couldnt fight back, just killing them. It's wrong.... |
I don't want to keep repeating myself. You either haven't read or haven't understood the previous posts.
You continually saying that it's "not war" and it's "wrong" does not make it so. Your perspective is irrelevant to the people on the "other side". That kind of blinkered vision is one of the main reasons the world is in the mess it is today.
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Leo_Burt
Cadet
Joined: Jun 22, 2004
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:54 am Post subject: |
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Deleter, Archon, others with similar attitudes... civillians may not fight wars, but they do empower warring factions. Productive civillians are as much a resource to a warring faction as a supply of fuel and ammunition. Allied forces routinely targeted non-military industrial locations during WWII to cripple German economic interests, and for God's sake we dropped the A-bomb on how many "innocent non-combatants" sending the people of Japan into such a rise as to cause their Emperor to not only surrender, but also to denounce his godliness. By targeting non-combatants you demoralize the combatants and place internal pressure on faction leaders to end a conflict (especially in a democratic faction.) Non-combatants, usually having a minimal comprehension of tactics or strategy and often incapable of comprehending a scenario from any perspective but their own, have a remarkable tendency to demand peace by the fastest (and only guaranteed) means available... SURRENDER.
Surrender not being a viable option for the world's superpower we are left with only two models to proceed with, negotiation and combat. Negotiation failing in this particular circumstance (there is no government with which to sign a peace treaty atm, and the ousted Hussein regime could hardly be characterized as trustworthy involving international agreements, AND the "leaders" of the terrorist (freedom fighters if you hate America) insurgents seem to have the same difficulty with upholding agreements as Hussein) we are left with combat as the only remaining model to proceed with.
Illustrated by one of Murphy's laws (a 50 something) killing for peace is like screwing for virginity... both seem to be counter-intuitive, but only to those who cannot see past immidiate circumstances. If you screw enough you can create far more new virgins than were lost in the process, and if all adversarial combatants are defeated, you are left with an uneasy peace by default... and that's ignoring the tendencies of leaders to capitulate before their own death/capture in a desperate grasp for self preservation.
Oops, didn't mean to go grave digging, just didn't notice when the last post was from... kind of trolling the forums in hopes of someone being able to help me out with my spyware laden beast of a PC. |
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