Forgive & Ye Shall Be Forgiven

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Ya know, Chickengirl, I went back over the post that you made about Paul's third heaven and I really can not agree with your analysis of the text. It looks to me as if Paul is trying to remind the Corinthians about his encounters with Jesus on the road to Damascas. This "third Heaven" that Paul is talking about seems to be a reference to the manner in which the people of the day refered to the different levels of creation. Notice that he mentions twice that he is not sure if this was a real encounter (in the body) or a vision (out of the body). In verses 5 and 6 he said that he did not want to glory in these things lest any one think more of him that he is due. He then goes on to talk about his infirmities.

As far as the stars singing in heaven in Job; In Revelation 1:20 the stars are shown to be Angels although this would only be true in prophecy.

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Revelation 1:20

Continuing on to Revelation 12 we find a great red dragon which draws a third of the stars from heaven.

Revelation 12
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Later verses give us a clearer definition of this event;

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Please note that these verses speak of angels being cast out with Satan.

Ezekiel 28 has a lot to say about where satan came from and what he is like. Verse 14 tells us that he was a "cherub that covereth" or covering angel. God tells us in verse 15 that he was created. I am not sure where you are finding references to man existance before creation or , in my case, birth.

I know that you have posted more text and I will get to them later. I have an early day tomorrow and should have been in bed long ago. I will get back as soon as I can. Thanks for giving me something to dig into.

chickengirl · Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 10:17 pm Post subject: sorry this is looooong

Hey Zippy...yea I was wrong in the previous post about 1Corinthians 15:46...got my notes crossed...Now...

This kind of hard to put into words...My best Christian friend and I see the "stars" differently...she see's it the same as you do...but I will try and explain my reasoning...
Since I was a little kid, I've seen life in metaphors, allegorys, parables...one situation being illustrative of another. This is probably why the Bible and I are such good buddys. It is like reading the most beautiful poetry, that has a feeling of being wrapped in cotton, and tasting of honey...kinda feels soft to me Rolling Eyes

I cannot help but see different "types" in my study of the Bible, and our Father teaches on different levels...I have a tendancy to be more ?poetic? in my thinking, and not so analytical, though I like things to "add up"...I stink at math, but create like crazy...I don't remember dates and numbers, but smells, images, and feelings linger with me for decades...I hear the whole band, when I am singing in the shower...and I guess when reading the Bible I tend to fill in the gaps of my understanding, with images...maybe it is a personal understanding, that I am supposed to keep my mouth shut about...maybe this is more information than anyone here needs...My thoughts may be totally out to lunch, but here goes...(I've added the Strongs definitions) Very Happy

I kind of see Christ as the Sun...and we as reflective lights of Him...as the stars reflect the true light of the sonshine. Christ obliterates satan; as the daylight overcomes the darkness and Love casts out fear...When we have gotten on with eternity, there will be no need for the sun, Christ will be the Light. There are many "types" like Moses being a type of Christ...God sometimes refers to his people as a: sea...cloud...trees...forgive my rambling...

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.(children of the light? or darkness? Remember Santa was once named Lucifer...)

I do understand, that we are spoken of "as the stars"...
Exodus 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. (this particular comparison made numerous times in scripture)

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. (in this case his brothers)

Judges 5:20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
all=From H3634; properly the whole; hence all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in a plural sense): - (in) all (manner, [ye]), altogether, any (manner), enough, every (one, place, thing), howsoever, as many as, [no-] thing, ought, whatsoever, (the) whole, whoso (-ever).

Psalms 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.

Psalms 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

Danniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

1Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. (as in each of His children are unique...also each child having a body celestial, and one terrestial)
stars: Probably from the same as H3522 (in the sense of rolling) or

H3554 (in the sense of blazing); a star (as round or as shining); figuratively a prince: - star ([-gazer]).

Light
Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Pro 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
Pro 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
Isaiah 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isaiah 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Light: H216 ore
From H215; illumination or (concretely) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.): - bright, clear, + day, light (-ning), morning, sun.
H215 ore
A primitive root; to be (causatively make) luminous (literally and metaphorically): - X break of day, glorious, kindle, (be, en-, give, show) light (-en, -ened), set on fire, shine.

Pro 15:30 The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart: and a good report maketh the bones fat.
Light: H3974 (1,2) maw-ore', (3,4) meh-o-raw'
From H215; properly a luminous body or luminary, that is, (abstractly) light (as an element); figuratively brightness, that is, cheerfulness; specifically a chandelier: - bright, light.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Light: H7837 shachar
shakh'-ar
From H7836; dawn (literally, figuratively or adverbially): - day (-spring), early, light, morning, whence riseth.

Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. (I only added this verse from Rev, because it is the same light as in the other new testament 'lights' listed.)
Light: G5457 phōs
foce
From an obsoleteφάω phaō (to shine or make manifest, especially by rays; compare G5316 and G5346); luminousness (in the widest application, natural or artificial, abstract or concrete, literal or figurative): - fire, light.

Now about my reasons for believing that we were created before we entered the flesh:

Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.(why do you suppose God would hate an "innocent" babe? Could it be what that soul did at the overthrow of satan? )
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
womb, and born: H4480 min, min-nee', min-nay' For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
139:11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Isaiah 48:2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.
48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

foreknowledge: (G4267 prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).
and G4267; forethought: - foreknowledge.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

predestinated G4309
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.
G4253 pro
A primary preposition; fore, that is, in front of, prior (figuratively superior) to. In compounds it retains the same significations: - above, ago, before, or ever. In compounds it retains the same significations.
G3724 hor-id'-zo
From G3725; to mark out or bound (horizon), that is, (figuratively) to appoint, decree, specify: - declare, determine, limit, ordain.
G3725 hor'-ee-on
Neuter of a derivative of an apparently primary word ὅρος horos (a bound or limit); a boundary line, that is, (by implication) a frontier (region): - border, coast.

Most of the stars spoken of in Revelation (except for the ones in 12:1) represent, I believe, the fallen angels. The bad guys of Genesis 6. The ones in 12: I think represent the 12 tribes of Israel?

And you know, as I have said before, I am open to a deeper understanding of the word...Though I am not shakey in my faith, I am always open to new "ah Huhs!" And can see things from several points of view...I hope this made sense..and didn't wear anyone out...Now I must go put the rocks back in my pockets, so I don't float awaaaay!

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Tell us the truth, Chickengirl. You are writing a book and just downloaded a page of it here. Right?

Really, though, give me a little time and I will go over what you posted here and get back. I printed it out and will go over it asap.

chickengirl · Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:01 am Post subject:

shamash · Corporal Joined: Mar 21, 2004 Posts: 70 Location: USA

I was gonna say the same thing as Zippy. Are you writing a book Chickengirl? Perhaps it's not a bad idea. I'm sure you would do quite well at it. I would also like to see a book by Ekrubtap. Now that would be an interesting read. Are you still around these parts Ek? You could call it 'Why the Bible is full of ____ (fill in the blank)'. Or 'Bible myths & mistakes' or how about 'The Bible is it worth reading?'. Any word on your book Ek?

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

I don't want you to think that I have abandon these post. I said that I will get back and I will. You have given me a lot to go over, Chickengirl, I think that I will have to give it back to you in pieces. I have several hours in "exploring" your ideas and am organizing my thoughts.
I may get part of it up tonight or tomorow morning.

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

First installment. Very long. It might be best to cut and paste to a doc then read.

What you have to say on these subjects is very interesting and I have spent several hours in studying what you sent to me. I have decided to comment in three parts since the original post is very long already and with my statements is long indeed.

My comments are made up of text and explanations. In some places you will have one or the other. In other places, you will find both used. I hope that I can be clear showing my thinking in these matters. I pray for understanding. I have underlined your text, put Bible text in bolded italics and put my comments in italics only.

Genesis 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

Gen. 1 14-19 is the story of the creation of those things beyond our atmosphere. The sun, moon and stars are specifically mentioned but there are other lights, just as there are asteroids, comets, planets and other bodies which are not stars but appear as lights in the night sky. This looks to me like this is what is spoken of here.

Exodus 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.

Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Deu 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

There are many references to Gods promise to Abraham to make thee a great nation. There are lots of them but I included these to show that the reference is to numbers and that the stars are a metaphor for people not a reference to a physical or spiritual state. Here God refers to Abrahams descendants numbering as the dust of the ground then later as the stars in heaven. In Deu.1:10 this promise is viewed as having been fulfilled because the people are as the stars of heaven for MULTITUDE.

Genesis 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Gen 37:6 And he said unto them, Hear, I pray you, this dream which I have dreamed:
Gen 37:7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.

Gen 42:6 And Joseph was the governor over the land, and he it was that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.

Gen 42:9 And Joseph remembered the dreams which he dreamed of them, and said unto them, Ye are spies; to see the nakedness of the land ye are come.

The first text that I supplied is Josephs first dream. The text that you supplied is his second. In the first Joseph and his brothers are represented as sheaves, probably of some sort of gain. This is not a reference to them being some sort of gain in another existence and I am compelled to believe that the next dream is not a reference to them being stars. Particularly since the prophecy of the dreams comes true in Josephs life time. The last two references prove this.

Judges 5:20 They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera.

This one really had me stumped, not just because of what is says but because of the story being told in this chapter. I looked at some commentaries on this and found:

Josephus relates that, just as the battle began, a violent tempest came on with a great downfall of rain; and a hailstorm, which, driving full in the faces of the Canaanites, so blinded and benumbed them with cold, that they could neither use their bows with effect nor even hold their swords. Albert Barnes; Notes on the Bible.

With this in mind I reread the passages and found that they make much more sense.

Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

In the previous chapter (24) Job speaks of the evils that men do but ends with the idea the God is not unaware of these things and notices them. In this chapter of Job, Bildad is attempting to convince Job that God is not interested in mans plight and is saying that the moon and stars, as creations of God, are not , in comparison to God, pure and that man is less than these in purity, being as a worm and is therefore unworthy. Chapter 26 begins with Job rebuking Bildad for what he says in chapter 25 as unhelpful and even asks Bildad what spirit was in the words that he spoke (verse 4)
I do not see this as a reference to people as stars.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

This verse brings me to two passages that have always intrigued me. They are;

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job 2:3 and the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

As you probably know, these passages are the precursor to Jobs torment. Both occasions take place on a day that the sons of God present themselves before the Lord. Satan presents himself as a peer of these sons of God and is questioned as to why he is there.
In my earlier post, I showed that Satan was created as the covering angel and thus a little higher than man so I must assume that these other sons of God are also angels not men.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

In this verse we see that Lucifer (satan) is refered to as son of the morning. Again I will remind you of my previous post about Lucifer being created an angel.

This next part is just a little idea that I have had for some time. And is really not part of this discourse.

It appears to me that Satan is implying, in Job 1:7 and Job 2:2, that he is at this meeting as a representative of Earth. If so, does this mean that the other sons of God are representing other planets? It is one of my intriguing notions but I really have no way of substantiating this idea and I believe that it is of little importance to the plan of redemption. It is one of those things to leave for heaven.

Now back to the topic.

Psalms 147:4 He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names.
Psalms 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite

Psalms 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

Taken in their entirety, both of these Psalms are praises to God. Psalms 147 is praising God for who He is and for the things that He can do. Thus knowing how many stars there are and knowing the name of each is used as an example of His greatness. This does not mean that these are living creations just that each has been named just as our planet has a name.

Psalms 148 is calling for Praise from created things because we were created. There is an extensive list here which just about covers everything. This chapter calls for both the animate and inanimate to praise God. Angels, men, mountains, trees, water, fire, hail, snow, dragons It is no surprise that the sun, moon and stars are included in the list and it does not establishes these items as living any more that it proves that the mountains are living or snow is living.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Daniel 12 is one of the chapters in the Bible which deals with the close of time which is in our future. These verses are referring to the resurrection and shows how we will be changed. I think that this shining is the same as that referred to in Matthew 17:2 and Exodus 34:29-30

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Exo 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses knew not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
Exo 34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.

These texts do refer to man having a shining countenance. This seems to be due at least in part to our Proximity to God but it also seems that it will be imparted onto those who are saved at the time of Jesus return. However, I do not see this as a reference to man living as star in the heavens but rather a comparison of intensity. In Exodus, we see how Moses countenance was shining after his 40 days and nights with God on the mountain. Shining so much that in Exodus 34:35 we see that he had to veil his face yet the balance of his life was lived out as a man.

1Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

These texts are the end of a long list in which Paul metaphorically compares our earthly bodies with those that will come with the resurrection. Paul is saying that there are differences between what we have here, now and what we can expect in Gods kingdom. The chapter continues with Paul explaining that we now have terrestrial body (earthly) but will gain a spiritual body (heavenly).

I like your idea about Jesus being the Sonshine and us reflecting it but I really think that it on works as a metaphor. That is OK because I think that it is a good one. Please excuse my editing, I really have just finished and decided to post as it. I hope that it makes sense. I'll post the other sections tomorrow. I did them in Word and will cut and paste but have to rebuild the underlining and such.

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Installment 2. Not as long but still a candidate for cut and paste.

Light

Pro 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Pro 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

Pro 13:9 The light of the righteous rejoiceth: but the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

These verses are some of the many, many text in the Bible which use the metaphor of light for goodness and darkness for evil. Proverbs 4:18 is a poetic reference to Christian growth in the Lord and, of course, verse 19 is about what happens when we reject truth. We metaphorically stumble through life.

Isaiah 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

This text is a little different from the others in that it refers to Gods light being as fire. This reference is meant to explain how little trouble God will have destroying the Assyrians, Israels enemy.

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

The Lord made an agreement with Israel that whey would be the teachers of His precepts among the Gentiles. In essence, they were to spread the word of God to the world that all may be saved. As we might say today, a Beacon of truth.

Isaiah 58:8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.

This chapter deals with Gods people, who had turned away from Him, returning to God. Verse 8 uses light as a metaphor for how Gods blessings will come upon the people, bursting forth like the morning. Their health (spiritual?) will increase rapidly and their rightness will be known and the glory of the Lord will protect them.

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

This is a portion of Jeremiahs vision of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. What he saw in vision is desolation so complete that he likens it to the earth at creation. This may in fact be a two fold prophecy, covering the destruction of Jerusalem and alluding to the destruction of earth at the end of time.

Pro 15:30 The light of the eyes rejoiceth the heart: and a good report maketh the bones fat.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Matthew 5:14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
5:15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Job 30:26 When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness.

Rom 2:19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
Rom 2:20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.

2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Over and over again the scriptures use the metaphor of Light and Darkness. The references listed above give us an example of the way in which this metaphor is employed and the diversity of its use BUT it is still metaphoric and reflect reality only in that sense. Job compares good and evil to light and darkness. Romans compares having light to being guide to the blind. 2nd Corinthians calls the light the glorious gospel of Christ and the knowledge of the glory of God These are metaphoric lights.

Luke 16:8 And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.

Here the children of light are contrasted with the children of the world. This also appears to be a variation on the light/darkness metaphor

Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Starting this text with verse 21 lets us see that this is a reference to the destruction of the city of Babylon. This says that no people will be left to make sing, make music, no craftsmen, no industry and no one to light candles.

I think that most of us are used to the idea that light denotes goodness and darkness denotes evil. We see this metaphor everywhere we look, movies, books, advertising. I had never thought about it in the way you expressed but must continue to believe that this is, for now, a metaphor.

Again, I hope that this made sense to you and was not too beatup from lack of editing.

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Installment 3. Still kind of long.

...created before entering the flesh

Romans 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Isaiah 46:9-11 tell us that God remembers what is past (former things of old) and is able to tell what is going to happen in the future (and from ancient times the things that are not yet done..). This has bearing because Romans 9:10-14 tells us that God knew in advance what kind of people Jacob and Esau were going to be even though they were not born yet. I dont think that God knowing ABOUT Jacob and Esau means that they existed before their birth. It is more likely that this reflects how thoroughly God know creation.
You hinted that maybe God hated Esau because of something that he did before birth but the verses that you quoted say neither having done any good or evil I dont think that this would be the case if Esau already had a record. Look at Strongs definition for hate and you will find that many times it is used to mean loved less.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.
139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.
139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

I think that I will only address verse 13 and verse 16 since these are the ones that seem to apply to your idea although the whole chapter is about how wonderful the human body is in its workings.
I looked at the definitions of the words in verse 13 and found that it could be rewritten as;

13 You have created (procured) my kidneys (organs); fenced (covered, entwined) me in my mothers womb.

This makes more sense when written this way and it is easier to see that this is dealing with fetal development not a life before conception.

Using strong dictionary, I rewrote verses 15 and 16 to include definitions of some of the words;

15 My body was not hid (secret) from thee, when I was made in secret(a cover, hiding place) and curiously wrought (fabricate) in the lowest parts (lowermost, depths, figuratively a pit, the womb) of the earth.
16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet unperfect (wrapped and unformed mass, that is, as the embryo); and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance (from one sunset to the next) were fashioned(to mould into a form), when yet there was none of them.

I think that adding in the definitions helps show that these text are saying that God knows even before we are formed, what we will be but does not indicate that we lived before conception. Think of it as an architect planning a building and knowing every facet of that building before it is build.

Isaiah 48:2 For they call themselves of the holy city, and stay themselves upon the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts is his name.
48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

This looks to me like another example of how God know what is going to happen before it happens. This is not surprising to me because of the number of prophecies in the Bible.

Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I believe that this text falls into the same category as those already explored and that this is referring to Gods power to know beforehand what is going to happen. I have to admit that the word knew is ambiguous and could lend support to your supposition. It obviously indicates foreknowledge on Gods part but not the nature of that knowledge. In view of what I have already presented, I am inclined to believe that this does not indicate a life before conception.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

According to Strongs dictionary, the meaning of Foreknow is; "to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before)". The meaning of predestinate is; "to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine" When these definitions are taken into consideration, these verses seem to be saying that God knows about us before we are born and has predetermined or decided that we can become like Jesus, that is sons of God. In fact, one of the text that you posted, Ephesians 1:5 says that we are predestined to be adopted as children by Jesus Christ.

2Tmothyi 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2nd Timothy 1:9 shows that God has called Paul and Timothy to a holy calling, not because of anything that they did, but because He wanted to. The last Part of this verse says that this calling was assigned to them before the world began. This does not mean that they were alive then, only that it was give to them at that time. We can tell this because the next verse says that this calling did not start until Jesus appeared which was not until 2000 years ago. This looks like an example of predestination as defined in the verses above.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

This verse shows that God promised us eternal life Before the world began. We did not have to be alive at that time to claim it, God predetermined that it would be accessible by us.

I believe that God decided before the world was created that, should sin enter our world, we would have a chance at salvation. This means that we are predestined to be saved. I do not think that this means that we are saved automatically since I believe that God also gave us free will. God in effect has decided to save us but will not force His salvation upon us. The choice is ours but if we choose salvation it is already guaranteed!!

This concludes my study of your post, Chickengirl. All in all, I have to say that your ideas have a certain appeal but after studying about them for a week, I can not agree with your thinking. It has really been good for me to have to dig this much. I look forward to more. Just not so much at once next time, OK. Very Happy

chickengirl · Posted: Sat May 22, 2004 8:58 pm Post subject:

Hey ZippyZingo...great Bible Study...and not that I am an expert by any stretch, but from where I am sitting, it looks like you have a good handle of the literal sense, and to a large degree, the metaphorical...my point that I was trying to make, is that there are deeper truths to be gleaned from the Word, in a more ethereal sense...after all, Christ spoke in parables...revealing truths in stories that can be taken in the literal, but having a deeper meaning, that all could not understand. I believe this is true in the entire Bible. Every name and number used, and situation illustrated, is there by design, as is the number of times a word or phrase is used, etc... It all has a deeper meaning, and there is much more than meets the "eye," or more than appears on the surface...We could study for the rest of our lives, and still find something new each time we study, but if it were to be taken only as literal, then we could be done in a couple of years.

But as you say, and I totally agree:

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Sorry for not getting back sooner, Chickengirl. My kids finished school this week and we are preparing for an extended trip to my parents home for their 50th annaversary.

I'm glad that you enjoyed the post. I'm not sure that I can buy the whole Bible as parable and numerology seems way to random to me.

I agree with you about our freewill. I know that God loves us more that we can understand and that he decided before the world was created that, should sin enter the world, we would be saved. I don't think that He will force anyone to accept His gift of grace but still extends it to all. In fact, I think that Lucifer could have been saved if he had only put away his foolish pride and asked God for forgiveness.

I think that you and I have some difference in belief concerning our place in the universe. I still see no reason to believe that we existed in any form other than an idea in God's mind before being born. It seems fairly clear to me that the third of the stars that satan took with him were angels.

I think that it is possible that there are other worlds that are populated with beings and that these may well be older than our own world but these are still created beings and thus subject to a starting point.
God offers us eternal life, in fact, I think that this was God's intentions before sin entered the world, but his eternal life is not the same as having always existed. Eternity extends into the future with out end but doesn't exclude a starting point.

I really think that we are mixed up on what a spirit is. I have a feeling that our understanding of this subject are not the same and that this is the root of our disagreement on these things.

I think that pain and suffering are part of the disease of sin and that God has to let sin run it's course in order to prove Satan to be the liar that he is. I know that there will be a judgment of mankind but I also think that the universe will be able to judge if God is fair or if Lucifer was correct when he asserted the God was not fair. Pain and suffering are the inevitable results of sin just as death is. God designed us to function in a certain manner and deviation from that causes a breakdown in the way we function. Sin and life are not compatable.

I think that the Bible is a wonderful tool and that many times passages in the Bible have multiple meanings. I see a life time of study and growth in the book without resorting to what I can't help but think of as reading between the lines. Maybe I should say that the Holy Spirit hasnt' led me to see this as a viable way to study. Until then, I think that I'll stick to my more literal understanding.

Reading over this, I see that it is a bit of a mess and I know that I have not given any supporting text but I really am very short of time and wanted to give a response. Smile

chickengirl · Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2004 10:21 am Post subject:

Hi Zippy...I have been in the same boat as you, regarding kids getting out of school...lots of graduations...picnics, birthdays and various outings these past couple of weeks...now it's finally warm enough to get the flowers planted, and way too much yard work to do...So this is basically a drive-by posting! And how cool your folks are celebrating 50 years of marriage...God Bless them...

We do have our differences in our ideas that we have gleaned from our studying, as I think most people do, when you get down to sharing the deeper nuances of scripture...and most of the things we differ on, are not critical. It is lovely to consider the possibilities...and way more interesting to me than talking about the latest episodes of American Survivor...or whatever!

For myself, reading between the lines is as natural to me as breathing...It is not something I intentionally do... Rolling Eyes

It could be the difference between the way the male and females brains function?...and as far as the whole Bible being a parable...I didn't mean that at all...I just think that in all the scripture, there is more than meets the eye...what is apparent, and on the surface, is our first understanding...then later, with a little excavating, we find some real nuggets. Like for instance, peoples names in the Bible, have specific meanings, and they are not random. I don't think there is one random item in there. God is the perfect mathmetician... it all adds up...I guess I am always trying to figure out the equation Smile

ZippyZingo · Corporal Joined: Apr 07, 2004 Posts: 71 Location: USA

Excavating nuggets works for me too. Lately my life has been very rushed. My kids got out last week and I have been trying to prepair for this trip. It hasn't left much room for anything else. My wife can't make the trip. I really don't want to leave her alone, for the several weeks that we will be gone and have tried to do as much as possible before I leave in order to make it easier for her. I always think that thing will slow down "in a little bit" but it never happens. I can't really complain. God has been very good to us. More that we deserve. But then, isn' that always the way it is?

Last year was very hard on my family. I lost my favorite uncle around the first of last year, my father had a stroke that he should not have survived, my mother in law , who lived with us, died last July and one of my brothers died of cancer 2 days before Thanksgiving.

With this, I still rejoice that God loves us. I really don't know how people survive without faith in God. I look at the people effected by these events and see how much more at peace the Christians are. You can tell without asking who believes in Jesus and who doesn't. It certainly hasn't been sweetness and light but my family, particularly my children have made it throught OK. I watch some of my extended family and friends struggle trying to make sense of what has happened. Without God, they are lost. It is so needless.

I have mixed feelings about this trip home because I am afraid that my parents celebration will turn into another memorial service for my brother. His death was the hardest. I was able to spend the last 10 weeks of his life with him and was able to find closure but, unfortunately, my parents were hoping the God would heal him and thus were not as prepaired for his death as I was. As happens in so many cases, he appeared to be getting better after the ended his radiation treatments then slipped down very rapidly at the end. I knew what to expect and was able to understand that the couple of weeks that he felt better were a gift but only for a short time. I don't pretend to understand what goes on in a parents mind when their child dies, I only know that without God, they would not have made it.

It really brings home to me what a sacrifice our Father made in letting His Son die on a cross for me. I used to wonder at the love that Jesus has to die in such a way. Now that I am a parent, I have come to realize that the hardest role may have been the Fathers. I do not think that I could set still, with all the power of creation at my call, and allow my son to die in such a way. I can't grasp the Love that such an act displays. To know that it is directed at me is very humbling. I look at people without God and wonder at their hopelessness.

My father, on the other hand should not have survived his stroke. What he really had was a Bleed inside of his skull. Seems that his blood pressure spiked, (neighborhood of 250/180 or so) which his neurologist said cause several ruptures in his small vessels and capillarys. When I got the call the medical staff were hoping that he would live long enough for his family to get together. On the plane trip out there, I was seated next to a lady who, asked if she could say a prayer for him. Of course I agreeded and so we did. When I arrived at their airport, one of my sisters greeted me with the words, " You'll never believe what happened..." to make a very long story short, at this point he has regained 85% + of his original abilities. The medical staff at the hospital could not explain what happened. The doctor said that he had never seen such a recovery after such a damaging bleed. The best that he hoped for to begin with was that Dad would be in a coma when we all arrived. At the time, we were all very happy but I remember my mother saying that she wondered why God would spare my father in this fashion. I believe that it was because He knew that my brother was going to die and that it would have been more than we could have taken to lose Dad too. I, of course, do not pretend to know the thoughts of God but I know that he will only allow as much as we can bear. God is Good.

Anyway, this was going to just be a short post but I got carried away. I hope that it make sense in a twisted rambling, 1 o'clock in the morning sort of way. Smile

chickengirl · Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:14 am Post subject:

Hey Zippy...I hope I catch you before you go on vacation...there has been way too much going on in my life these past weeks...some very heartbreaking things as well...I pray your trip home will be refreshing...There will be sadness without your brother there...but it is so good that you can get together with them....Family is such a treasure...I am sorry your wife can't make the trip with you...It always feels weird not having your spouse along...especially when you are close.
I hear ya brother...I keep thinking things will slow down a bit, but they never do...God speed, Smile

and have a safe trip.


	Home ˇ Topics ˇ Submit News ˇ Top 10 This entire site, Cops Themes, and Computer Cops are Š 2002 - 2004 Computer Cops, LLC. All rights reserved. You can syndicate our news using the file RSS 0.91, ultramode.txt, or RSS 1.0. Acceptable Use Policy. Use signifies your agreement. Engine Copyright Š 2002 by PHP-Nuke, GNU/GPL Licensed. ICRA Member. Paul Laudanski, Member of Computer Cops, LLC Server Load: 732 pages served in previous 5 minutes. Page Rendered: 0.600 seconds.